Frank Zappa – Right or Wrong?
A New Angle
By Colin Germano
Happening, March & April & May, 1983
Editor's Note: Although most magazines edit interviews be/ore they are published, we felt that Frank Zappa's thoughts should be reproduced in their entirety, because they give a lucid insight into his abnormal genius. Because of its intensity and length, we decided to run the interview in three parts.
HAPP: Well, I guess we'll start with the usual. Where'd you get your start and how old were you when you got into music?
ZAPPA: I started playing the drums when I was 12 and started writing music when I was 14. I changed to guitar when I was 18.
HAPP: What kind of education did you have?
ZAPPA: High school.
HAPP: Never went to college?
ZAPPA: Well, I went there for six months. I went there to get laid. So I met a girl and dropped out of school. Eventually married her, stayed married for five years, got divorced, was divorced for about a year and a half, got married again and have been married ever since.
HAPP: How did you break into the business?
ZAPPA: Accident.
HAPP: What happened?
ZAPPA: A guy from a record company thought we were a white blues group and signed us.
HAPP: Where were you playing?
ZAPPA: At the Whiskey-A-Go-Go.
HAPP: When was this?
ZAPPA: 1965.
HAPP: What label signed you?
ZAPPA: Verve. It was a subsidiary of MGM.
HAPP: How long did you stay on that label?
ZAPPA: Two years.
HAPP: Where'd you go then?
ZAPPA: I formed my own label called Bizarre, which was distributed through Warner Brothers for about eight years and we eventually sued them.
HAPP: Why did you sue them?
ZAPPA: Because they cheated me out of some money.
HAPP: Did you originally start out with commercial motives in terms of success in the business?
ZAPPA: No. That seemed like a stupid thing to do because that's what everyone else was doing. I figured there had to be somebody out there who just wanted some entertainment. We do entertainment for a special kind of consumer. There's plenty of other groups making normal stuff for normal consumers.
HAPP: The lyrical content of your music is probably the most radical that has ever been accepted and purchased nationally. Where are you coming from when you write stuff like, well, let's take "Dynamo Hum," for example, since that seems to be one of your concert favorites and it does get some airplay. Where do you come from when you write lyrics like that?
ZAPPA: Well, it seems like the normal thing to do. It's a true story.
HAPP: Do all your songs deal with true stories?
ZAPPA: No, not all of them, but a lot of them are based on things that people really did and things that people really said.
HAPP: Was "Dynamo Hum" a real true story in your life?
ZAPPA: Not until after the record came out
HAPP: You must be taken controversially among the critics and even the consumers themselves. Your lyrics reflect a lot of sex and grotesque, odd situations that are completely socially unacceptable.
ZAPPA: That's a rather stupid thing to say. First of all, it's not completely socially unacceptable. Second of all, it's not grotesque, it's just the facts. If you don't like the facts, that's tough tucks. Third of all, the deal with sex seems fairly normal since everybody's got something to do with sex and people who don't deal with sex are hypocrites. Either that or permanent residents of Orange County.
HAPP: In general, in the public or the society that's been established as the so-called correct society.
ZAPPA: There is no correct society.
HAPP: The "so called" correct society.
ZAPPA: Don't even call it that. There is no correct society. You act like there was such a thing as normalcy. Maybe there is in Orange County, but it's all make believe.
HAPP: Still, people have their guidelines that they go by, the set patterns of the society.
ZAPPA: The guidelines of Orange County are not the guidelines of the planet and that's the problem we're going to be dealing with here. What to you might seem normal and what to you might seem grotesque is totally out of faze with the reality of the rest of the world. One might well ask where you're coming from when you ask these questions because they're so preposterous.
HAPP: I'm speaking for the readership.
ZAPPA: I'm speaking to the readership if, in fact, you as a person express their values and motivations. I would just like to say at this point that what you've said to me so far is totally out of faze with reality. The world is made up of a lot of different facets and a lot of different things. Sameness is unenforceable. God never wanted people to be all the same and the so-called guidelines that you're talking about for correct behavior and correct society and normalcy and all the rest of that stuff changes very drastically. From city to city, town to town, block to block, and there is no one norm, and since there is no one norm, I am not to be perceived as outside of that norm or to be spoken to as if I was some sort of a weird thing that has to be rationalized to your readership.
HAPP: Let's just say, aside from what I believe and aside from what you believe, the direction of your music is ...
ZAPPA: Entertainment! The fact of variety is the norm. The fact that nothing is the same and never will be the same and will not conform to one standard, that is the fact. That's normal. No matter how much you might wish it would be otherwise, or I might wish it otherwise, people are different. They all have different desires and there are different kinds of things that entertain them. You might not like country and western music. I might think it's great. You might like jazz, and I might think it's disgusting. It just depends. One thing that amuses one person is not going to amuse somebody else. I think that everybody has the right to be entertained with the type of entertainment that appeals to them. What I do is provide a certain type of entertainment for the people who like that kind of stuff. And only for them. Not for people who like country and western.
HAPP: What do you think those people are looking for in you?
ZAPPA: They're looking for an alternative to the other types of entertainment that are being offered to them.
HAPP: The people who your music appeals to can perceive your lyrics in either a humorous way or an offensive way. Either way, they get off on it and it's entertaining to them. Where are you coming from?
ZAPPA: I'm providing the service of entertainment However you perceive it, if it entertains you, I've done my job.
HAPP: But, you personally, I mean, let's say no one was buying your records and you were sitting here in your studio making music.
ZAPPA: I'd do the same thing. Exactly the same thing.
HAPP: But, where are you coming from?
ZAPPA: What is this 'where are you coming from'? What is this jive talk? Specifically, what does 'where are you coming from' mean? What are you trying to ask me?
HAPP: Someone could write something and people could perceive it in different ways. When you write what you write, you have your own perception of what you're writing. Other people may grab it in different ways. Personally, I don't know what goes on in your mind, I don't know what you think.
ZAPPA: That's not relevant to the enjoyment of what I do. It's not necessary for a person to know what's going on inside my mind in order to enjoy what I do. I think it's absolutely desirable that they don't. My motivation in doing it is to provide entertainment for people who want that kind of entertainment. That's it. That's my motivation.
HAPP: What gave you the idea to put on the song "Valley Girl!"?
ZAPPA: It was something that needed to be said about those people.
HAPP: What do you feel about those people?
ZAPPA: Nothing. I just gave you the facts -- airheaded people -- people who enjoy being air-headed.
HAPP: Why did you bring your daughter Moon in?
ZAPPA: Because she could do an imitation of that kind of voice.
HAPP: Is she active in that society?
ZAPPA: Well, she goes to school down there so she knows a lot of those people.
HAPP: Aren't your other kids into music as well?
ZAPPA: My son Dweezil plays the guitar. He has a single called "My Mother is a Space Cadet."
HAPP: Is that a real life experience for him? As far as your wife ...
ZAPPA: ... being a space cadet? No, I think it's a general attitude that most kids have about their parents.
HAPP: Did you influence him in writing it?
ZAPPA: No, that's strictly his own production.
HAPP: Does he live here?
ZAPPA: Yeah.
HAPP: Does he produce here?
ZAPPA: It was recorded here, yeah.
HAPP: Have you recorded many albums here?
ZAPPA: Quite a few. The first one that was done here was "You Are What You Is" in '80 or '81. I've had this (recording studio in his home) for a couple of years.
HAPP: It's quite a set-up.
ZAPPA: Yeah, it works good.
HAPP: Have you ever had a break from music?
ZAPPA: What do you mean, 'a break'? You mean a vacation?
HAPP: No, a long break, like, did you ever step out for a year or two?
Continued next month in April
Editor's Note: Although most magazines edit interviews before they are published, we felt that Frank Zappa's thoughts should be reproduced in their entirety, because they give a lucid insight into his abnormal genius. Because of its intensity and length, we decided to run the interview in three parts.
HAPP: Have you ever had a break from music?
ZAPPA: What do you mean, a break'? You mean a vacation?
HAPP: No, a long break, like, did you ever step out for a year or two?
ZAPPA: No, why bother? This is what I like to do.
HAPP: Is this what you wanted to be?
ZAPPA: Sure. It's the best of all possible worlds. I thought for a minute about being a cowboy but that never really worked out. Every little kid wants to be a cowboy or a fireman or something. After that, I wanted to be a chemist, but that didn't work out, so I became a musician instead.
HAPP: When you were in school, did you have any idea about what you were going to do or what you were going to be?
ZAPPA: I knew I was going to go into music. By the time I was 18 I was pretty sure of that.
HAPP: It's hard to believe you picked up the guitar at 18.
ZAPPA: Why?
HAPP: Because you play quite well.
ZAPPA: Well, shit, I'm 42 years old. I've had a lot of practice playing the guitar.
HAPP: Most people who play guitar as well as you do have been playing for quite some time. They usually grew up with it.
ZAPPA: No, I changed over late. I'm glad I started with the drums.
HAPP: Do you ever play the drums now?
ZAPPA: Very seldom.
HAPP: You've got a lot of really good hidden melodies in your guitar licks. They're so fast and lengthy. Didn't you once put out a classical album?
ZAPPA: Yeah.
HAPP: I've never heard it. It would be really something to hear you playing classical music.
ZAPPA: On the classical album I'm not playing. It's just an orchestra playing my music.
HAPP: Do you consider yourself a serious vocalist?
ZAPPA: Nah! I just do it 'cause it's easier for me to do it than to hire somebody to do it. I've tried hiring dynamic lead vocalists over and over again, but usually they either have trouble singing the words because they don't believe in 'em or they have trouble getting the point across in the lyrics. The thing that I do best is I can at least get the point across
HAPP: When I saw the concert portion of your movie tonight, I noticed a lot of audience participation. Is that common for one of your performances?
ZAPPA: In New York it is.
HAPP: You like New York?
ZAPPA: Yeah.
HAPP: Done a lot of concerts there?
ZAPPA: Yeah. We've played there probably more than any place else in the world.
HAPP: That's your favorite place?
ZAPPA: Yep.
HAPP: You ever live there?
ZAPPA: Yep.
HAPP: How long?
ZAPPA: Year and a half.
HAPP: What part?
ZAPPA: In the West Village.
HAPP: How come you didn't stay?
ZAPPA: Got to be a little bit complicated because Moon was born and that's really not a good place to raise kids, I don't think. So I moved back to California.
HAPP: Are all your kids from your current wife?
ZAPPA: Yep.
HAPP: Did you have any kids from your first wife?
ZAPPA: Nope.
HAPP: What about drugs? Have they ever entered your life?
ZAPPA: Nope. I don't use drugs and never did. Didn't see any reason to. What's so great about using drugs? Look at the people who use 'em. They're fuckin' vegetables.
HAPP: Did you look down on people who were using drugs?
ZAPPA: It was very easy to look down on them. Most of them at that time in the '60s were on the ground. We worked with the Grateful Dead in San Francisco. They were the opening act and the audience was laying on the floor, I mean, there was so much marijuana smoke it looked like a swamp scene with a fuckin' purple haze up to your knees. It was so dense that in order to get out of the place you had to be careful where you walked 'cause you could hardly see the faces through the haze. But that was an exaggerated situation, to see a whole room full of people on the floor like that. But generally speaking, most of the people who use drugs just turn into vegetables. They never had anything interesting to say and when they weren't doing their little trip, whatever it was that they were on, they were spending the rest of their waking hours trying to figure out how they were gonna get some more drugs. That just seems like a stupid life.
HAPP: What do you think about the commercial success of "Valley Girl"?
ZAPPA: It's ridiculous.
HAPP: You mean the way they ate it up?
ZAPPA: Yeah, it's ridiculous. It's nothin' to do with the song. It's ridiculous. It has more to do with people's desire to get into some kind of a trend and consume some sort of stupidity than it does with the song.
HAPP: With the approach you have and playing the music you do, I would imagine that you didn't achieve financial security for quite a while. How long did it take?
ZAPPA: Fifteen years. We didn't really start selling large quantities of records for about 15 years after the time we released the first one.
HAPP: How were you living?
ZAPPA: Just average.
HAPP: You must have put a lot of money in this new movie (Baby Snakes). I would imagine at least $250,000. Did you have any investors for that?
ZAPPA: Nope.
HAPP: You used all your own capitol?
ZAPPA: Yes.
HAPP: Did you look for an investor?
ZAPPA: At one time, yeah, but it took too long so I just figured I'd do it myself.
HAPP: Did that bind you financially?
ZAPPA: Such matters are not of a musical consideration.
HAPP: Is Zappa your real name?
ZAPPA: Yep.
HAPP: What did your parents think about what you do?
ZAPPA: My father's dead and my mother thinks it's OK.
HAPP: When did your father die?
ZAPPA: '73, '74, something like that.
HAPP: What did he think of it?
ZAPPA: I don't think that he liked it too much.
HAPP: Did you get along with him?
ZAPPA: (pauses)... It was OK.
HAPP: When did you move away from home?
ZAPPA: When I was about 20, 21, something like that.
HAPP: Where were you raised?
ZAPPA: At that time we were living out in Cucamonga, Ontario... that area.
HAPP: Is that where you grew up?
ZAPPA: No, I lived all over the place. I lived in San Diego, Monterey, Baltimore, Florida...
HAPP: Would this bother you if I lit it up? It's a clove.
ZAPPA: Oh, one of those things? Well, I'll tell you what, why don't you wait until after you leave 'cause I don't like the way those things smell. If you wanna take a break and go out there and smoke...
HAPP: No, that's OK. It's no big deal. Can I bum one of yours?
ZAPPA: Yeah.
HAPP: Does your wife live here?
ZAPPA: Yep.
HAPP: Do you spend a lot of time with her?
ZAPPA: When I'm not here (in the studio). She's upstairs, I'm downstairs. We got four kids. She keeps pretty busy.
HAPP: How old are your kids?
ZAPPA: 15, down to 3.
HAPP: You gonna have any more?
ZAPPA: No, four's enough.
HAPP: Most people would think someone as successful in the music industry as you would lead a completely different lifestyle.
ZAPPA: Well, people's imaginations do tend to run amuck.
HAPP: A couple of months ago I thought – ya know, "Frank Zappa," if there was some way we could get in touch with him it would be a great story. I thought of an angle and thought "Frank Zappa... is he right or wrong? "
ZAPPA: (Laughs)
HAPP: I know what you're thinking and, before I go on, know that I'm not speaking personally. I'm reporting. People form opinions.
ZAPPA: How do they form these opinions? Based on what kind of information? The answer is: based on the information that is applied by people, like, who put it in print. If you put that kind of crap in print, how are people going to form their opinions? They form the opinions based on crap. So if you write crap, that's what people's opinions are based on. That's part of the same problem that keeps Americans uneducated because what you do in your publication is what other people do in their publications, and they shine it on by saying, "Well, I'm not speaking personally," and they have the ultimate gall to presume that they understand the minds of the reader or the people who are picking the thing up. In doing so, they treat those readers as if they were fucking mental Pygmies or something when, in fact, they themselves are the mental Pygmies for treating the public in that way and giving them crap. So "Frank Zappa, is he right or wrong," don't give me this shit. I've heard all that shit for years. And it's not you personally talking. Maybe it's just the editorial point of view of your magazine. I don't need that kind of stuff. That's ridiculous. You call that an angle?
HAPP: You have an angle. Your angle is providing for that specific group of people who wanna hear what you provide.
ZAPPA: That's an angle?
HAPP: Sure, it is. Don't you think so?
ZAPPA: That's not an angle. An angle is "Frank Zappa – Right or Wrong." That's an angle in the corniest sense of the word. What I do is not an angle. What I do is a profession.
HAPP: You appeal to a certain group of people, right?
ZAPPA: Yeah. Do you have any idea what that group of people is? No. If you had to draw a picture of one, could you? No! Because they don't look the same and they don't act the same and they're not all the same age and they're not all the same income bracket, and they're not all the same social background.
HAPP: They all have something in common.
ZAPPA: Yeah, they got one thing in common – they don't want normal entertainment. They want something else. That's the only thing they have in common.
HAPP: Do you blame people for being normal?
ZAPPA: ... I can see what leads to it, yeah. I'm not too enthused about the motives that drive people to seek normalcy 'cause nobody is born normal in that sense of the word. Nobody is born the same as 200 million other people so that they can proudly proclaim that they fit in. You're not born that way. You're born as a different organism. You're totally separate and apart from everybody else. And if you choose to conform and you choose to belong, then OK, go ahead and do it, but the motivations that are behind those choices are the things that cause the problems because the sacrifices people make in terms of their own personalities, in order to appear normal when they really aren't, are bad things and bad things happen because of that.
HAPP: What do you think the motivations are?
ZAPPA: The simplest form of a motivation is: people will pretend to act normal so that they can have friends. Now, the friends that they gain by acting that way are not really worth it because they're acting that way, too. That means the whole relationship of those friendships is based on something artificial. It's like people who go around saying, "Have a nice day," when they don 't mean it at all, ya know?
Conclusion Next Month In May
HAPP: What do you think the motivations are?
ZAPPA: The simplest form of a motivation is people will pretend to act normal so that they can have friends. Now, the friends that they gain by acting that way are not really worth it because they're acting that way, too. That means the whole relationship of those friendships is based on something ·artificial It's like people who go around saying, "Have a nice day," when they don't mean it at all, ya know?
HAPP: So where do they find true friends?
ZAPPA: Well first of all, I'm not positive that true friendship is available or necessary or even desirable. Self reliance is better. If you don't like yourself enough to admit that you're different from the next guy, then you need all the fake friends you can get.
HAPP: Do you have real friends?
ZAPPA: Sure, I've got a great wife and four kids.
HAPP: Do you have friends outside the family?
ZAPPA: No
HAPP: Do you think it's possible to have friends outside the family?
ZAPPA: In theory it could be possible if you wanted to spend the trouble to go out and dig 'em up, but why bother?
HAPP: Were you acting normal when you met your wife?
ZAPPA: No, I'd just gotten off an airplane from our first US tour I looked like a bum
HAPP: Well, when you have friends or relationships, if you open up immediately it seems that people would think you 're not normal and shy away, whereas if you hang in there with the normal routine for awhile and you can break it down as time goes on, maybe you can get a relationship out of it
ZAPPA: Well, maybe. The law of averages being what they are, I'd say that nothing is impossible but the amount of effort that you have to put in to do it that way is pathetic. It takes too much of a toll on your individual personality. All those years you go around pretending to be something that you're not definitely has a bad effect on a person's personality l think it's better for individual mental health if you just admit who you are and what you are and go out and be what you are and do what you do and see what comes up. Just have the fuckin' bills to go do that instead of being a wimp and pretending to say, "Have a nice day" And going around treating people in a fraudulent way It cuts through the crap right away l mean, why wallow in it? Why sit there and pretend all this stuff. It doesn't really get you anywhere. What you're suggesting is you go along with a program for a certain period of time and then you can find somebody that you like well enough, then you'll reveal your true identity like Clark Kent or something and maybe you'll fall in love and have a great relationship. That's stupid. It wastes a bunch of time. Go out there and be what you are, do what you do and then, if you're lucky, you're gonna find the right person and then you have a great relationship and in the mean time you didn't have to lie to a thousand other people.
HAPP: Yeah, but you're in a different position to do that.
ZAPPA: I've been doing it since I was a kid.
HAPP: You reach a lot of people.
ZAPPA: l said l was doing it since l was a kid, when l wasn't reachin' anybody I've always done it that way
HAPP: How did it work for you when you were a kid?
ZAPPA: Fine. It got me to where I am now.
HAPP: What about your childhood friendships?
ZAPPA: They were handled in exactly the same way that l handle 'em now.
HAPP: Right now you can expose yourself to a great number of people through your musical outlets, whereas most people are confined to a one-to-one basis. On a one-to-one basis it's not as easy to reach the people who you can open up to because the numbers aren't there
ZAPPA: Well, then you have to be selective and wait around till you find the right one rather than blowin' your best shot on somebody who's not your best friend and who never will be. Ultimately, that's bad for your mental health. I believe that l think that you can do yourself a lot of damage by being so desperate to go out and get this friendship or get this approval or whatever it is you're supposedly looking for. But by the time you've jerked yourself around and told all these lies to yourself and all the rest of your acquaintances, you've done a lot of damage and that ain't gonna go away. You just have to make the decision. You just have to say to yourself when you get up in the morning, "OK, that's it, I'm cutting the crap today. No more 'Have a nice day' to people l hate. No more pretending to be nice when people really aren't nice to me. No more bulIshit". Just stop doing the bulIshit! If everybody in America would stop doing the bulIshit, we'd be in a lot better shape.
HAPP: Don't you think most people would be ridiculed?
ZAPPA: What's wrong with being ridiculed? Sticks and stones can break your bones but names are not gonna hurt you. Remember that one? Some guy says, "Hey, he didn't say 'Have a nice day,' he's a shmuck!" What are you gonna do, go commit suicide? Laugh at these people.
HAPP: People thrive on acceptance
ZAPPA: They shouldn't. Acceptance gets you nowhere. That's like waiting for your mom to tell you you're a good boy You're not a good boy-you're a boy! Neither good nor bad. You are who you are and that's what you are. If your mother tells you you're good, does that make you good? If your friend tells you you're a groovy guy, does that make you groovy? If your friend says you're a shmuck, does that make you a shmuck? If you come to me and say Frank
ZAPPA right or wrong, does that make me right or wrong? It doesn't matter: It's bulIshit. People should just stop doing that stuff. It's useless.
HAPP: But they won't.
ZAPPA: Some will. You only wish they won't.
HAPP: Hey, you don't know that.
ZAPPA: Well, you say they won't.
HAPP: People in general won't.
ZAPPA: What does "people in general" mean?
HAPP: "People in general" means you grab a hundred names out of the phone book.
ZAPPA: Those are people in general? And they won't if you gave the opportunity to do something better?
HAPP: If you take a hundred names out of the phone book, that's what I'll call "people in general". Those hundred names would be locked into their little world and they're not gonna change.
ZAPPA: Have you ever tried?
HAPP: Well, if someone comes to them and tries.
ZAPPA: Well, do you think that if you put this in the magazine the right way that it might make some people think? And that if one person out of a hundred decides, "OK, today I'm cutting the bulIshit, I'm not gonna do this stuff anymore," do you think the world will be better for it? I do.
HAPP: For that individual.
ZAPPA: For the rest of the world. The fewer people on this planet who lie, the better off we're gonna be. Everything that's wrong with what's going on in the United States today is because people lie to each other. They lie and cheat and they steal. They're just not truthful. They're full of bulIshit.
HAPP: So what do you think the answer is? Obviously, set yourself up in your own environment.
ZAPPA: Nom Just start not lying. Just tell the truth. Go out there and do the right thing. Don't sell your ass out for some approval. It's stupid; giving up your whole identity as a human being for two ounces of approval? From somebody who doesn't really care about you? That doesn't even make sense in a logical way it gets you nowhere. You just have to have the courage to go out there and say, "Here l am. This is what I do. I'm me. Do you like me? OK, you don't? OK, great. Goodbye!"
HAPP: You've found a lot of people who like you.
ZAPPA: You forget one thing - I was doing this ever since I was a little kid.
HAPP: Was it frustrating?
ZAPPA: No. You learn to live with it. You learn that that's the right way to do it. If everybody calls you an asshole, that doesn't put you out of business. That doesn't make you wanna die l mean, it gets boring with people calling you an asshole because you don't say, "Have a nice day". Ultimately, you're better off if you just don't lie to people.
HAPP: What if you find yourself alone?
ZAPPA: So what? What's wrong with being alone? Would you rather be alone with a person that you liked or a person that you hated? You can like yourself if you tell the truth. You might not like yourself so much if you know that you've spent your whole life kissing ass and being stupid about relationships with people. So what if you're alone by yourself l don't mind being alone by myself I'm great company.
HAPP: Permanently?
ZAPPA: Doesn't make any difference. I think it's a fantasy that people are gregarious, hanging together in flocks like sheep.
HAPP: What if that makes you happy?
ZAPPA: If that's what really makes you happy, I'd be surprised, because if you really are happy by hanging around in flocks you're gonna have to have people hanging around you all the time in order to be happy. That means that most people, ultimately, are doomed to misery. They couldn't be happy when they were sleeping unless there was a room full of people, ya know, gotta have 'em there all the time if you're really gregarious There's a lot to be said just for having privacy and to be able to sit by yourself and enjoy what's going on in your own mind without worrying about whether or not you're telling somebody "Have a nice day
HAPP: Where do you get your most enjoyment?
ZAPPA: Just from working; most of which I do by myself.
HAPP: You think that's where your real happiness lies?
ZAPPA: Of course.
HAPP: I guess everybody has a different vision of happiness.
ZAPPA: Happiness is that state which is not unhappy.
HAPP: Don't you believe there's different levels of happiness?
ZAPPA: Sure, if you wanna refine it down to a micro-science. But if you just want a general explanation, I think you could draw the line as: from here-happiness; from there-unhappiness, anything from there over is happiness.
HAPP: Do you think someone can get happiness from playing basketball?
ZAPPA: Of course. If that's what makes him feel good he should do it. That's happiness.
HAPP: What about wearing a mask or living from a shell, having lots of people around you who don't really know you? What if he seems to enjoy that?
ZAPPA: Ah! You said "seems to enjoy that". In order for it to be real happiness he would really have to enjoy it; not to seem to enjoy it. If that's what he really enjoyed and that's his happiness, then he should go out there. He should tell every, body to have a nice day He should wear the brown lipstick and kiss as much butt as he can and he should go out there and live that life if that's what really makes him happy. I would be amazed if there are people like that.
HAPP: Don't you think playing basketball or bowling or shooting pool is the same thing?
ZAPPA: No. Those are physical activities. Somewhat different than kissing ass and saying "Have a nice day" You can excel at those physical activities.
HAPP: Either way they're both games.
ZAPPA: Now you're dealing in terms of a semantic tweeze. If you just wanna call it gamesmanship of kissing ass versus gamesmanship of playing basketball, the same thing; if that suffices as logic for you, then good luck. I think you're avoiding what the issue really is.
HAPP: The issue I was hitting on was happiness and where you get it. Some people get it through goin' out to parties and bullshitting and getting as many friends as they can, others get it from building computers, others from playing music, and other people get it from arresting people Some get it from making fun of people Who 's to say who 's getting the real happiness? We can all claim to be happy and do the things which we believe will make us happy but how do you know if what you're doing is really making you happy? Is there a way to determine?
ZAPPA: Not if you're heavily into self delusion. Not if you've been deluding yourself for so long you don't know what the fuck is up. Also, if you're using a lot of drugs it's pretty hard to tell what the fuck is up ".
HAPP: Can you, after talking to someone and finding out what they do, determine whether or not they're happy?
ZAPPA: No. Nor would l even be interested in determining I really don't care.
HAPP: You do what you do and you appeal to such a great amount of people, a lot of people really like you, yet you have a completely different standpoint toward people's ways of thinking.
ZAPPA: Just because I think of things differently than the way other people do, what's that got to do with whether or not I can entertain them? What I do is entertainment, who I am is something else How I think is something else again The people out there who form the audience for what I do are interested in what I can do for them in terms of entertainment
HAPP: But through entertaining, you're exposing yourself.
ZAPPA: Not necessarily. I'm doing a job. I do things to entertain I don't ask anybody to participate in my personal problems I don't ask anybody to participate in any aspect of my life that is not part of the business.
HAPP: Aren't your lyrics based around your life?
ZAPPA: No, not all of 'em. I told you earlier on in the interview some of the things are things that happened to me. Some of 'em happened to other people. Some of them are based on things that people say. Some of them are just pure fantasy The idea of the singer/songwriter going out there exposing his soul to the audience is a bunch of shit I think that would be a reprehensible way to earn a living, by having such a really fucked up emotional life and going around and singing about it and profiting from that I don't have any respect for people earning a living that way.
HAPP: Do you think, if people knew you personally, the way you are in real life, it would change their opinions or likes and dislikes about your music?
ZAPPA: Not necessarily Most of the people who consume that I do just consume it. It's an entertainment thing for them
HAPP: Do you get happiness out of entertaining people?
ZAPPA: No I get happiness out of doing the work. The entertainment that people get from it has nothing to do with the work I do I'll do the work. Even if nobody ever heard it, I'd still do the work. The ones who hear it and get entertainment from it -that's great, I'm in favor of that, but my entertainment comes from doing the work, not from entertaining somebody else.
HAPP: The fact that people are entertained by it doesn't bring you happiness?
ZAPPA: Not as much happiness as doing the work.
HAPP: Do you have any pressures on you to live up to anything in terms of the image you've created through your music? Do you feel as though when you go to parties or when you socialize with people in the business that you have to 'maintain that image?
ZAPPA: No. First of all, I don't socialize and I don't go to parties. Second of all, I don't think I have to live up to anything I just have to do what I do and keep doing it and that's that. It's not a question of whether I'm right or I'm wrong It's a question of whether I'm doing it or I'm not doing it. That's all Most people really don't prefer the facts. They prefer their angles and their fantasies
HAPP: People get off on it
ZAPPA: Yeah, well, that's too bad
HAPP: It is too bad, but it seems to be the way things are
ZAPPA: Well" the facts are the facts
HAPP: It depends what your goals are I don 't want to go hungry in my business for J 5 years I'd like to succeed So you look down the road and try to figure out what's gonna make you succeed and what success is and you start thinking monetarily and then how to achieve it from there.
ZAPPA: Do you think you're gonna achieve it by writing an article about me that says, "FRANK ZAPPA-Right or Wrong"?
HAPP: If I could get a good angle out of it and people get off on it and they read the magazine more because of it. Regardless of whether it's even relevant or not. I know what kind of opinion that builds in your mind about me.
ZAPPA: Yeah, perfectly. But it also builds a very bad opinion in my mind of the guy who works in my office that sent you here to do this interview because, basically, what you're saying is you would use me or anybody else in order to further your own career. You would write anything about that person that would further your career and make sure that you were gonna be financially happening further down the road, which is pathetic Which makes me feel a little bit weird about having spent this much time even talking to somebody who had those kind of motives in mind.
HAPP: What kind of motives do you think are in the minds of most people in my position?
ZAPPA: Probably very similar to you but you're, if you don't mind me saying so, the worst case that I've ever come across.
HAPP: I was honest. I came out and said it. Which is probably why you think that.
ZAPPA: No, no. Even if you hadn't come out and said it. Yeah, it's unfortunate.
HAPP: You blame me for it?
ZAPPA: Sure! I blame you and I blame everybody else in the journalistic profession who would use somebody else to further their own syndrome.
HAPP: Why would they write about someone who doesn't draw readership?
ZAPPA: Some people like the idea of passing information along. Some people like the idea of the facts. Then there are people who are so egotistical they think they are the only thing that counts and anything in the world that they write about is only fuel for the machine that is driving them forward into the golden sunset of their career. So you're starting at 22 to be like that, great; you'll probably wind up as the editor of Time magazine. But, ultimately, I think I'll do this.
Frank Zappa then terminated the interview and retained the cassette tape. He said he did not want to be featured in this publication and added that he would be "very perturbed" if he was.
Two days later he received a phone call from the writer asking again for the tape. This time Zappa complied. As per his request, this interview is virtually unedited .
Read by OCR software. If you spot errors, let me know afka (at) afka.net